INDIANAPOLIS (AP) — One of the nation’s largest Christian denominations is addressing the nation’s financial crisis with what it hopes will be a spiritual teaching moment as well as a cost-saver.
Fifty United Methodist Church bishops in the United States will roll back their salaries by 4% next year in what Bishop Gregory Palmer of Springfield, Ill., president of the Council of Bishops, says is a gesture of solidarity with others hurt by the global economic downturn.
The salary cut is one of the strongest statements taken yet by a faith group as U.S. churches respond to a recession that has left growing numbers of people jobless and hungry. Other denominations have eliminated jobs, frozen salaries or canceled mission trips.
United Methodist leaders say the move, approved in May, is an acknowledgment that churches are hurting too and there’s less money to go around. But some Methodists said the bishops’ action would have been more effective — and might have saved some church jobs — if it had come earlier.
The article goes on to list the salary of a bishop and the amount that they will be forfeiting:
The bishops’ salaries will fall back about $4,700 annually to their 2008 level, $120,942, on Jan. 1 from $125,658 currently. The annual pay, based on a formula, is set by the denomination’s General Council on Finance and Administration, which voted in May to accept the bishops’ recommendation. The money comes out of denomination coffers.
Granted, I don’t know the scope or responsibilities of a Methodist bishop or the cost of living in their area, but off hand, that sure does seem to be a large amount of money for someone working in the ministry.
Pastor salaries are a sticking point for me. Since it’s a calling, they pretty much know what they are getting into when it comes to sacrifice of all means, and I always thought that the calling should come with some sort of vow to financial humbleness; and I’m sure it does for some. I understand the stress, dedication, the study, the amount of time, and other sacrifices involved, but it almost seems like tithes aren’t being properly allocated to help those in need. This isn’t a stab at the Methodist church, but the church in general. To me, it’s almost as if people will turn first to the government for help, food stamps and what have you, because the church has their funds allocated to paying a high salary for a pastor. And I bet in some cases, the pastor of church makes more than three quarters of his or her congregation. And perception is a big deal. There’s nothing wrong with treating yourself every now and then, but a pastor driving a luxery car to church can send an unintended message. I don’t know what a proper salary should be, but off hand, anything over a $100,000 seems high.
Sorry for the rant, and I know several pastors read this blog, so this isn’t an attack on them. If anything, I hope they can take this as one church goer’s perception of things.
I think the issue here is your definition of calling. A while back I read a great book by Os Guiness titled “The Call” (I highly recommend it). The basic premise is that we all have a calling from God. Prior to taking on his role as Savior, Jesus’ call was to be a carpenter. Your call might be in QA or teaching, but there IS a call from God for your life and you should seek it out. When you are doing what you are called to do you will be at your most effective for God’s kingdom AND for you and your family (yes, easier said than done).
Now, let’s assume that the call God has for your life is to do your current job at SWA. If that were the case, would you be willing to do it for less money? Would you be willing to live below the pay of your congregants (i.e. your fellow workers and/or employees)? If it is okay for you to earn a fair wage for performing your call, why is it okay to expect a pastor to do different? You have talked recently about getting a car and have specifically mentioned Infinity, a luxury brand. Is it okay for you to drive a luxury car to work if one of your congregants is having trouble affording to keep their car running? What about a raise? I know SWA typically does not do layoffs, but would you be okay in maintaining your current level of pay if some of your congregants were going to be laid off?
I think one of the problems in the 21st century American church is that we assume the pastor is to live by one set of rules and we are to live by another. However, throughout the Bible the Christians are called to set it all aside and follow Jesus. Yes, the calling given to the disciples is well chronicled, but there is no indication that Jesus expected other Christians to live by a different standard. As a matter of fact, Paul clearly tells the story about Christians selling their stuff to help when their fellow congregants were in need. He does not say it was the pastor and staff making the sacrifice, he makes it clear it was the whole church. Unfortunately the 21st century church expects the pastor to make sacrifices to do his call but we do not expect to make them ourselves.
I do agree that this can be abused though. Some pastoral compensation is out of whack…just like compensation for corporate CEOs. And like you said, the difficult thing is identifying what is fair. I think that the church laity should be bathing the process in prayer while comparing their staff salaries to that of churches of similar size with similar. I also think looking at the business world is a good place to start. Compare a church size/budget to businesses with similar numbers and see where they line up. After all, we expect a pastor to do everything a CEO does in regards to managing a budget, staff and facilities…but we also expect him to do everything else a pastor needs to do. Why should we place less value on his knowledge, training and experience just because God called him to CEO a church while he placed the same type of call on someone else to shepherd a business? God does not place greater value on one call, why should we?
Thanks for your thoughts on this, Keith.
There are certainly some examples of excessive pay among clergy, and it can set a wrong tone in a given community, not to mention raise some moral questions about allocation of donated money in a hurting world.
But there has also been a history (in many traditions) of hurtful attitudes from parishioners about this topic. It seems that every person in church leadership has some opinion about what is appropriate for their pastor to earn. Can you imagine being in the pastor's shoes hearing a message like "hey, it's your calling, just be thankful for what you do get." In some cases, that message has systematically oppressed ministers families. I know families living below the poverty line while their congregants spend extravagant amounts on their own pleasures.
Just because it's a calling doesn't mean it should come with unfair compensation. What tone does THAT set for the watching community?
Grace and peace,
Nathan
OK Rev Hart – I thought you were too busy with all your summer activities to visit the blog of your favorite half-Asian from Texas? But I guess everybody needs a little escape every now and then. 😉
I appreciate your comments, but I'm not sure if I agree that a calling doesn't mean it should come with unfair compensation. I would probably say that a calling means that it CAN mean unfair compensation. I admire those pastors that don't live in excess, but it's the pastors who get an overly generous compensation that concerns me. I think that sends a very wrong message, IMHO.
I look at the calling of the disciples as an example. When they heard the calling of Jesus, I think they knew their lives would be changed forever, which meant sacrifice and a change in lifestyle.
If a pastor has a salary of lets say $150,000, which isn't unheard of, and his or her church has to lay-off two staff members who only earn about $25,000 a year, I think some priorities are out of wack.
One of my problems is that I just not sure what a fair compensation should be, and I know there are a plethora of factors that go into what makes up that salary.
I wasn't arguing for excessive compensation. I was arguing for fair compensation, i.e. not below the poverty line.
PS. I'm home for a week, between tours of duty at camp. So I have some time to bother my TX brother.
I'd love to see some biblical references on what you refer to as a "vow of poverty." I think you might have church tradition confused with theology.
I understand that there are some hot emotions on both sides of this debate, however I think fair compensation is only fair.
I work at a church that pays me very fair. I have a 401k, and the church matches a portion of my contributions. My church provides health care for me. My church does not pay me an exorbiant salary, but they do pay me fairly. I cannnot find biblical support for making my family suffer through financial strains becuase of my "calling."
I understand much of what you're saying, as I haven't always been a minister. But like the good Yankee Reverand said, be careful that you don't communicate to my family that they aren't near as deserving to be taken care of as someone with a non-church position.
…and I also love you in a very Texan way.
I think the issue here is your definition of calling. A while back I read a great book by Os Guiness titled “The Call”. The basic premise is that we all have a calling from God. Prior to taking on his role as Savior, Jesus’ call was to be a carpenter. Your call might be in QA or teaching, but there IS a call from God for your life and you should seek it out. When you are doing what you are called to do you will be at your most effective for God’s kingdom AND for you and your family (yes, easier said than done).
Now, let’s assume that the call God has for your life is to do your current job at SWA. If that were the case, would you be willing to do it for less money? Would you be willing to live below the pay of your congregants (i.e. your fellow workers and/or employees)? If it is okay for you to earn a fair wage for performing your call, why is it okay to expect a pastor to do different? You have talked recently about getting a car and have specifically mentioned Infinity, a luxury brand. Is it okay for you to drive a luxury car to work if one of your congregants is having trouble affording to keep their car running? What about a raise? I know SWA typically does not do layoffs, but would you be okay in maintaining your current level of pay if some of your congregants were going to be laid off?
I think one of the problems in the 21st century American church is that we assume the pastor is to live by one set of rules and we are to live by another. However, throughout the Bible the Christians are called to set it all aside and follow Jesus. Yes, the calling given to the disciples is well chronicled, but there is no indication that Jesus expected other Christians to live by a different standard. As a matter of fact, Paul clearly tells the story about Christians selling their stuff to help when their fellow congregants were in need. He does not say it was the pastor and staff making the sacrifice, he makes it clear it was the whole church. Unfortunately the 21st century church expects the pastor to make sacrifices to do his call but we do not expect to make them ourselves.
I do agree that this can be abused though. Some pastoral compensation is out of whack…just like compensation for corporate CEOs. And like you said, the difficult thing is identifying what is fair. I think that the church laity should be bathing the process in prayer while comparing their staff salaries to that of churches of similar size with similar. I also think looking at the business world is a good place to start. Compare a church size/budget to businesses with similar numbers and see where they line up. After all, we expect a pastor to do everything a CEO does in regards to managing a budget, staff and facilities…but we also expect him to do everything else a pastor needs to do. Why should we place less value on his knowledge, training and experience just because God called him to CEO a church while he placed the same type of call on someone else to shepherd a business? God does not place greater value on one call, why should we?
I'm sure some people are called to be a soldier, teacher, or pilot or whatever, but I think some people may not be called into anything. I don't feel a calling towards anything. Maybe blogging, but who knows.
Personally, I think if a person is called into the ministry, certain things are attached to that, one of being, a call to financial humbleness and maybe even poverty. Knowing that one is called into the ministry means that God has set that person apart for a specific reason, and because he has set that person apart, he or she shouldn't have to worry about being provided for since they know God will provide because of his calling, thus accepting the call for financial humbleness and poverty. I dont' really have anything to back that up, it's just my own thoughts.
Now since I'm not called into the ministry, or even know what my calling is or if there is even a calling of any kind, I know I still need to evangelize as a follower of Christ. However, since I'm not called to be a pastor, there's not a need for me to take to take a vow of poverty. With that said, I don't think your example of my career applies with my line of thinking. However, I should still be a good steward of my earnings. But lets say two men are called to serve in the military. Both know what they are going to get into and the sacrifices and the toll it take on their loved ones. They know their pay will not be what they can make in the civilian world, but they do so out of love and country. One may be enlisted and one may become an officer, and while both serve the same amount of time, lets say 20 years, there's definitely going to be a difference in pay in terms of responsibility.
Now I understand we are all called to evangelize through our respective careers. But in terms of pastors, personally I don't think there should be a focus on a high salary. In my mind, a pastors salary should be efficient enough to provide for his or her family and other like items, and should not be shopping at Neimans. Even though I'm not a big fan of Rick Warren, I like his approach when it comes to his salary, and wish more folks of the cloth would do like wise.
Double standard? You bet. I'm a firm believer in a double standard. So since I don't know if God calls everyone to go into a certain profession, I don't really have much ground to stand on saying that I think God does place a greater value on one call or another, but I think he does.
Not trying to change your mind, just trying to give you my perception of things.
There are two pastor friends of my that I'm very proud of, both of whom live in west Texas – one in Abilene and the other in Lubbock. I see how they sacrifice in terms of cloths and other items, looking for bargains off CraigsList and Goodwill just to save a dime, and still have the ability to donate, even donate a car. These men took a call to sacrifice, and when I see pastors living in a mini-mansion, driving luxury cars, wearing high dollar clothes, and seeing that those extra funds could go help his or her flock, it bothers me.
I think I once heard from a Catholic friend that their pastors have to take a vow of poverty, and maybe that's where all my line of thinking comes from.
Just because you haven’t identified your calling doesn’t mean that you don’t have one. I recommend you pick up a copy of Os’ book, read it and then seek out your call.
By the way, when you say that you are a firm believe in a double standard are you saying that you get that out of scripture or is that just your personal belief. I am not aware of God advocating a double standard, but I do know that James 2:1-9 makes it clear that we should not show favoritism…and that is a double standard. Although it does not apply directly here it is the closest that I am aware the Bible comes to addressing the issue.
Finally, I too think some pastors seriously abuse their position for profit, just like some CEOs do. Like a CEO, their 'business' is best done when serving those around them rather than lining their pockets motivates them. Anytime a human focuses on $ their eyes are not on God, and when that happens they are in sin, regardless of their job. But, I think the reality is that underpaying a pastor is just as likely to turn his focus to $ as overpaying him. The key is to identify a proper level of compensation, and I do not think a ‘vow of poverty’ is it.
In my personal church background a team of laypeople has set the pastor/staff compensation. I have never been aware of any of my pastors trying to set or influence his/her compensation. This has worked well since the laypeople on this type of committee tend to have a long-term vision of the particular congregation and community that the church/pastor is ministering to/in. Since the laity understands the role of that particular pastor as well as the costs of living in a particular community they are in the best position to define the compensation. Basically, since my church is in Keller, and our congregation lives in or near Keller, our pastoral staff should be able to afford to live in the community in which they minister.
What is it with people always recommending books to me? Don't my readers get it . . . I don't like to read books. 😉
Other than to be a follower of Christ, I don't feel I have a calling. And it is my personal belief that other than following Christ and spreading his word, people may have no other calling. You may believe differently, and that's OK, I just don't agree with the fact that everyone has a calling or that he or she hasn't found or discovered it.
Maybe I need to reread the Gospels, but I don't recall that Jesus was actually called to be a pastor, it just happened to be his profession. But he was called to start his ministry. As for Thomas and Matthew, I don't now if they were called to be a tax collector, but maybe. I'm not sure the person who flips the switch on death row is called to be in that position either.
The book of Hebrews mentions that Hebrews are God's chosen people, so that may be a form of favoritism. And God himself has a different set of standards of believers vs non-believers. Jesus had 12 disciples, and even though he may not have shown favoritism as he loved them all, I would say he treated each different. It's just a like parent with two kids. The parent loves them both, but because of of different personalities and past actions, the parent may permit one child to do one thing and prohibit the other. The parent loves each child equally, doesn't favor one over the other, but will apply a different standard to each one. I feel God does the same for me. I have a personal relationship with Christ, but then so does Benny Hinn. OK, Benny Hinn is a bad example, but I would say that as head of a church a pastor is held to different standards because he or she is in a leadership position.
But I get what you are saying in referencing that verse, it just has to be taken in context.
I may have read your entry in a bit of a rush and didn't fully comprehend it. And besides, you write in that fancy Ivy League tone which throws me off. 😉
Agreed. Fair compensation is totally acceptable.
You seem to have the "pastors in excess" model in your head when you think about ministers getting paid more than the poverty line. There is certainly a balance in between, no?
And the bulk of Protestant theology on calling disagrees with the distinction you make between calling as any vocation and calling as only for gospel-bringers. The Apostle Paul, John Calvin, and myriad lesser voices (I see Os Guinness is rightly referenced above) all say that every Christian is called to a certain gift-set and vocation. Some of us just happen to be called to the vocation of Christian ministry.
Mr. Bryant is correct. There should be no standards difference for these two types of callings. I find it ironic that a Christian called to non-ministry vocation would declare that it's okay for him to pursue Capitalist ambitions (i.e. extravagant compensation) but not okay for his ministry-vocationed friend. If a pastor should be living in poverty, why not all Christians too?
PS. Get the Os Guinness book on tape or something, or better yet, read a book for once! 🙂
PPS. I like the new comment system a lot. Very clean and easy to track conversations.
I love and respect both of you guys in the most Christian-heterosexual way possible, but I just disagree. I think there should be a difference in standards, and that ministry folks shouldn't be as capitalist focused as non-ministry folk. I'm not sure if I can articulate it well, but lets try this. Those employed in the ministry should have a life that is more like a non-profit company, and those out of the ministry have the option of living a life like a for-profit company. Again, just my own personal thoughts.
And I still don't agree that other than evangelism, Christians all have a calling. All Christians may have different spiritual gifts, but callings, no.
I'd love to see some biblical references on what you refer to as a "vow of poverty." I think you might have church tradition confused with theology.
I understand that there are some hot emotions on both sides of this debate, however I think fair compensation is only fair.
I work at a church that pays me very fair. I have a 401k, and the church matches a portion of my contributions. My church provides health care for me. My church does not pay me an exorbiant salary, but they do pay me fairly. I cannnot find biblical support for making my family suffer through financial strains becuase of my "calling."
I understand much of what you're saying, as I haven't always been a minister. But like the good Yankee Reverand said, be careful that you don't communicate to my family that they aren't near as deserving to be taken care of as someone with a non-church position.
…and I also love you in a very Texan way.
You know, Jonathan, you and your family was one of the examples I thought of when writing about this topic, mainly because I'm so very proud of the example you have set forth. And I think I failed at my initial communication which has lead to some confusion. So let me try this again.
When I mentioned poverty, I really meant a life of simplicity and not one of excess. So maybe I should have used the words simplicity and humbleness. Now I know there's a governmental definition of poverty, and my intent wasn't to say pastors and their family should live below that line.
Let me give you an example of what I meant by taking a vow of poverty. Remember, I shouldn't have used the word poverty, but this is what I meant.
I had a friend in high school who was one of the most intelligent, studious, and determined persons I've known. Heck, he even graduated first in my class and just about carried a 4.0 all though college. He had the talent to become a world class surgeon or a scientist for NASA, or some other career that would have brought him riches and fame. But he was called to the ministry, and in doing so, vowed to follow the plans that Christ has laid out for him as opposed to use his talents to make lots of money. He knew this call would mean he would have to sacrifice many things. His wife knew this would mean she would not live the life she lived under her father where everything was easily provided, because the life of a minister does not provide the physical resources those other jobs would. So they both know they will not be living in a large house, that their kids will not be wearing name brand clothes when they attend school, that they will not be taking tropical beach vacations every summer – all because they followed the call to preach in a small town called Mineral Wells. And they are loving every minute of it.
They remind me of you and your wife, especially from what I read from your blogs. Both of you have the intellect and talent to be doctors or lawyers and live a grand lifestyle of physical riches, but you much like my friend have made a sacrifice to the Lord Almighty, a vow of poverty (even though I should have used another word than poverty), where you would much rather be a giver than receiver of gifts.
I also recall the story of one of my other friends who has gone into the ministry. I remember when he was first married, they actually owned a really nice Jeep, one of his dream cars. But when he felt his calling to his first job in the ministry, he had to give up that nice ride. Later he and his wife actually had two cars, but it turns out someone in his church actually needed one more than they needed two, and they actually gave the car to this person in need. My buddy also had the smarts and talents to make it rich, but he took this calling to the ministry he also too vow of poverty (yes, I know, bad word), or better yet, a vow of sacrifice. "Less of me, more of Him."
Now I'm sure my two friends, their spouses, and most likely you and wife have or will have a conversation with your kids saying why they may not be able to have things that other kids in school have, but they have valuables that can't be measured in terms of love of y'all and Christ.
All of you have sacrificed now, and I know all of you will gain your reward in Heaven.
So no, I don't think any minister's family should have to live below the poverty line, and if that is what I communicated, I should have said something better, something like a vow of simplicity and humbleness. I think all ministers should be able to adequately be able to provide for his or her family and not suffer – maybe sacrifice, but not suffer. And I don't think any of that communicate that they aren't as deserving as others.
So do I have Biblical references for a vow of poverty. No, not really, Google provided some interesting pieces, many relating to the Catholic faith and misunderstandings of the "vow of poverty." And one mentioned that Chirst came in on a donkey, and not a something grand, and that was an example. But my point isn't to support taking a vow of poverty, because I used a poor choice of words.
Now because a pastor is in the ministry, it is my personal opinion that he or she should not live a life of excess in riches with money from their church, but rather a life of simplicity and humbleness. If one were to earn well over $100,000, that just makes me uncomfortable, no matter the community or how large the church. Now if a pastor writes a book and profits from that, then that's probably a different story, but I think you and David and Rev Hart may now get my point.
If not, I give up.
One other thing that usually bugs me is that the majority of times, pastors leave in view of a call. Which is cool, but I wonder why the majority of times that view of a call includes a larger salary and in a church in an nicer community. That doesn't always happen, but I've seen it happen quite often, and wonder why God doesn't call pastors to smaller churches.
Keith, I appreciate your honesty and transparency in this discussion. Having worked in vocational ministry (both within and outside of the church) this topic strikes a chord with me too. I think that Rev Hart has made a good argument about fair compensation, so I won't copy his words on that point. However, he was right on with his point asking why all Christians shouldn't be held to the same standard.
I was struck by your contention that those Christians who are not in ministry can live a "for profit" lifestyle. Do you not think that ALL believers, regardless of calling or vocation, should strive to live a life like Jesus? I would strongly argue that we are. Jesus spoke and taught about money as much, if not more, than any other topic. Therefore, I would say that all Christians should live a "not for profit" lifestyle – giving to those in need, living on only what is necessary (with adequate provision for savings and maybe some little extravagances here and there).
Reading through your posts, it seems that you are drawing a clear distinction: if one is called to ministry, one should expect to be paid modestly and live even more modestly; and if one is not called to ministry, all bets are off. Look, you are right on that there is a difference between believers and non-believers. You are right on to be outraged at the abuses and extravagances that many within the church have exhibited. There also seems to be some Scriptural support for holding those who take on the role of teaching and preaching to a higher standard – with regard to how they handle Scripture. I just think that you are wrong if you think it doesn't matter what kind of (financial) lifestyle you maintain as a Christian.
Note: I'm not saying Christians can't be wealthy. I'm saying that wealthy Christians had better be generous with what God has given them or I believe they will be judged (Jesus' parable on the sheep and the goats comes to mind). Also note: I'm not accusing you of anything here. I absolutely believe that you live within your means and I know you to have a giving spirit. I'm just challenging the assertion that it's okay to live "for profit" as a Christian.
Thanks for you comments Brent. And I think you understand me better than most on this topic, but I do think we have a difference in thought, or maybe I'm not communicating well.
I do think pastors should live a not-for-profit life, a life of simplicity and humbleness, mainly because a pastor is living off the tithes of the church – other people's money. If my pastor was driving a Maserati to church everyday and I knew that was partly from my tithes, that would make me feel uncomfortable because I know those funds can be allocated elsewhere to help those in need. I feel more comfortable seeing my pastor live a modest lifestyle, and seeing funds spread around to different ministries.
If someone is out of the ministry, then I think that person can make as much money as they want as long as it's in an ethical way, just as long as they do what's right with ten percent of his or her earnings.
I don't want to repeat myself, but I also just posted a comment to Jonathan's comment that might help better explain things, and my poor choice of using the word "poverty" instead of something like "simplicity."
Yes, you have done a good job redefining your terms from "poverty" to "simplicity." I really have no disagreement that those going into ministry could and probably should expect to be paid modestly and live modestly. I, too, am bothered when I see a pastor driving a ridiculously extravagant vehicle.
Again, I'm simply trying to assert that Christians outside the ministry should also consider a life of simplicity and modesty, especially in the light of all Christians being called to live like Christ. An appropriate cliche in this instance is that 10% may be an appropriate tithe (though only referenced in the OT and the topic of tithing is really a WHOLE other conversation), but in reality everything belongs to God. I assert that all believers are called to honor God with all (not just 10%) of their money, whether they make minimum wage or six figure incomes.
Now, in the interest of transparency, I know this is difficult to follow. My personal media collection and desire for a world-class "man cave" leads me to confess that I don't always honor God with all of my money…but I'm trying. 🙂
You have a very, very good point when it comes to the tithe, and you are certainly correct that that is a whole other topic. And I totally agree that Christians need to be reminded that everything does belong to God, and if it's possible, do more than just the tithe.
I do believe that possibly, for the first time, I agree with Rev. Hart.
What has this blog come to?
Both of my grandfathers were pastors, both my mom and dad grew up in poverty.My dad has been a pastor for over 30 years. I was raised in a household that hovered right around that poverty line.
Here are my thoughts…
1. A church has the privilege of providing for their Pastor and his family. That is something I believe a church family should take pride in. For a church to limit a Pastor's salary because "that came with the calling" is an insult to both the Pastor and his calling.
2. A Pastor has a duty and obligation to lead by example and live a simple and humble lifestyle before his people. If a Pastor is not living a sacrificial lifestyle, it's pretty hard to preach it to his congregation. If a pastor isn't living a "simple" life, that congregation needs to reconsider who is leading them.
Chosing to live simply and being forced to live in poverty is two completely different things.
Nathan S –
I don't think you read my clarification above in my poor choice of words. I stated that I shouldn't have used the word poverty, but instead should of used a life of simplicity, sacrifice and humility. My clarification, in my opinion, supports everything you stated in your second point.
Keith